User talk:Professor Chaos
- 1 Using YM conversions on Atari ST game pages
- 2 Re-recording of existing SID soundtracks
- 3 PC Speaker
- 4 Hey
- 5 Hoppin' Mad (NES)
- 6 Let's think of that!
- 7 Theoretical format outputting to PC Speaker
- 8 Just some brief thoughts about wiki
- 9 Amstrad CPC site has a special tag for games without music
- 10 Unknown Mocking Song title
- 11 File deletion request
- 12 Front page
- 13 Broken redirect
Using YM conversions on Atari ST game pages
It seems YM logging is always not a 1:1 sound presentation of Amstrad CPC game music. For example, some comparison with AY and even VGM rips has revealed to me that YM sound is a bit more harsh and "simplified". Thus, unfortunately, YM rips are probably always a worse option for making recordings than just computer games themselves or AY/VGM files...
However, I was able to found some YM archives with converted YM2149 data from Atari ST. Considering the abovementioned information, they are also not an ideal transcription of a music data. Also, YM does not fully support YM2149 chip. But... Their sound is the same time not too far from "true" game rips' recording. Also, that's at least a "genuine" 80s computer music, it possibly can be played on every platfrom that uses AY chips, including something like Apple II. I'm not sure if something like AY, SC68 or SNDH are "easier" for those machines.
It makes me to think there is some sence in adding the existing YM conversions of non-digital Atari ST games' rips. What do you think about it? I ask you, because you seem to be a proper person for that, having some interest in AY-line sound chips (my apologies for bothering you if not). --M1911 (talk) 16:20, 1 December 2019 (EST)
- Nah, you don't bother me. It's hard to bother me. :D Only be patient: It's true I have some interest in AY-3-891x sound, but I'm also still learning about the different AY-3-891x-based platforms and formats.
- So you consider adding YM and SNDH files? So users can play Atari ST songs on, for example, Amstrad CPC? Hmm. I am undecided. Not sure if many are going to try that, especially since you can't actually play YM files on Amstrad CPC, but have to convert them to AYC first. Apart from that, personally I don't like log formats in general, they seem bulky.
- But then again, you're right about AY, SC68 and SNDH: They can only work on the original platform; the others would have to emulate another CPU, which takes RAM and time. And if the Atari ST YM files already exist, then it's just a matter of uploading them, and those few kilobytes probably really won't hurt, will they? But perhaps it's better to ask Dean, too. --Professor Chaos (talk) 13:25, 2 December 2019 (EST)
Re-recording of existing SID soundtracks
Hello. Firstly, thanks for your SID recoding guide! Though now I understand that furter recodings of Commodore 64 might be more complicated than it seemed for me previously, that would help to record them with the best sounding.
However, I have already recorded some Commodore 64 tracks, just as other users. While for some of them it might be quite simple to decide if they should be re-recorded or not (I can't check all of them right now, in particular which ones are using filters and which ones do not, due to the temporal lack of sound on PC), for some of them it's more difficult. I'd ask about some of them:
1) Generally: is it OK to use JAM For Windows at least for recording songs without filters (sounding the same on every SID revision) being 33% stereo-panned? It might be more of personal taste, but I'm personally finding that stereo-panned SIDs sound often better (Cybernoid II: The Revenge (C64), Highlander (C64)) than 100% mono, despite SID is actually mono. I also found JAM is producing a short and mostly inaudible click in the very beginning, though it is recognizable while looping in Audacity. Maybe, there is a simpler tool for stereo-panning, I just have not tried it yet.
2) Humphrey (C64): may I ask you what do you think about the usage of filters in its title theme? I feel like David Whittaker might have added them into that, but years ago, when I was trying to record it, I found that for my ear the overall sound feels too dirty in case filter bias is not 0. The current recoding omits filters, and the resulting sound corresponds the way that Commodore 64 composers in 1983 were performing to work: it's more chippy and stakkato. But, maybe, with another filter bias it sounds much better than just without filter?
3) LED Storm (C64): different filter biases produce very different result (I can't check it via DeepSID right now, but I was able to found some recordings with different presets (1 and 2). It case that game is recorded, should it look like Impossible Mission II (C64) page?
- Thanks, I'm glad it helps and am looking (hearing) forward to re-recordings! :)
- (I will also answer on the guide.) JAM is okay if the model (6581 or 8580) is definitely known, and the filter sounds okay (and noticeable!). For example, on Martin Galway, JAM sounds indeed very nice, but not so on Rob Hubbard, especially his LightForce (Song).
- Oh yeah, dirty buzzes like at 0:20, right? I recommend: Set the filter bias to something unbearable and then move it right (in VSID) or left (in XMPlay) until it sounds fine. Sometimes, the music may still sound a bit funny, because David Whittaker sets the filter to a random value on every note. But that's his artistic choice, and as long as it just doesn't get dirty anymore, it's ok. Only fully disabling the filter is unrealistic.
- Correct, right at the beginning of both recordings is an audible filter! :) Tim Follin's filter is said to be similar to Rob Hubbard's. As for how many recordings... good question. I think the composers' original sound is most important, but some people may remember a different sound, and will either be confused, or even prefer the wrong sound -- I feel that way about some NTSC songs! But I will ask Dean, since a few Windows 3 MIDI games beg the same question (Dare to Dream (W16) and probably Dracula In London (W16) sound much better on Windows 3's bad AdLib driver than a proper MIDI device).
- --Professor Chaos (talk) 12:03, 10 July 2020 (EDT)
- Yes, in Humphrey, it sounds a bit like in your example + I remember I was confused by the "randomness" of wah-wah effect created by the filter. Because the tune itself is very short, the effect goes throughot the loops like it's not in a sync with the melody itself, at least that's how I has been thinking about it. I have tried just now to listed that tune on a player with a simple filter on/off feature; now I feel better about it. Indeed, there is a place for some filter expirements.
- Personal audial perception of music played at incorrect speed sometimes is a thing, indeed. Buzzer version of Tim 1 from Lemmings (ZXS), Apache Strike Theme from Apache Strike (C64), Cut Scenes - DragonStrike from DragonStrike (C64), were the ones I have used to listen at the wrond speed, so I was quite shocked when I found out that's not the way they were supposed to play. But while in the last example other songs in that game sound worse at the wrong speed, the first example, actually, is arguable (right now it's recorded from the game at the incorrect speed because of the weak ZX Spectrum processor, but in the game's rip it has a correct speed), and the second example is only one song, the case is even more complicated because I'm not sure if the MAC version was recorded on its correct speed (does Mac Plus/SE even have those NTSC/PAL troubles as platforms like Commodore 64?).
- --M1911 (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2020 (EDT)
- User talk:TheAlmightyGuru#Recording Guide and the new NTSC/PAL - Recording Guide mention something about recording twice! As for Macs, sorry, I never really got into Apple. --Professor Chaos (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2020 (EDT)
- Dean has answered all my questions. Hope I didn't overwhelm him. :-) I have now clarified the SID - Recording Guide, does it answer your question on LED Storm? I think the NTSC/PAL - Recording Guide is so far complete (except for the platform list). Unfortunately, I can't find proof that DragonStrike (C64) was actually published in PAL. --Professor Chaos (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2020 (EDT)
I guess, that, despite PC Speaker being accociated with MS-DOS and ZXS games, there is some sence in considering as a "birthyear" the first usage of it on even systems which did not have music. The earlies that comes into my mind was Commodore PET from January 1977, but there might me some systems to use it even earlier, as PLATO's "Gooch Synthetic Woodwind" dates back to even 1972, and the first game to ever utilize music I was able to found was Gun Fight (ARC) from 1975.
But there can be a different reading, since PC Speakers earlier than probably A2's one are barely related to the computer music' history. At least, I remember somewhat similar case, when TheAlmightyGuru has decided to put a year when the computer series of Dungeons & Dragons starts: in 1982, but not 1974, as PLATO games are not official (probably also due to the fact they are thus unrelated much to the vidogame music history). --M1911 (talk) 11:55, 17 July 2020 (EDT)
- I tried out the piezo speaker on VICE (xpet.exe, Settings > Machine > 2001), the frequency register seems precise enough for high-pitched music, and this sounds rather convincing: . I have to pass on anything before 1977, though, I can barely get my head around. I did find this:  (Motocross arcade game with built-in tape player?) --Professor Chaos (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2020 (EDT)
To Doommaster1994 and Professor Chaos, that's a lot of composers that used GEMS. I think I have to speak to Marc Baril and Paul Wilkinson that they used GEMS on Beavis and Butt-Head (GEN), which is developed by the developer that made terrible NES games like The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle, The Terminator and Wayne's World. --Duc4Wikmedia (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2020 (EDT)
Hoppin' Mad (NES)
Hey, let's talk about Hoppin' Mad (NES) now. It used the same sound driver version used on Cybernoid: The Fighting Machine (NES), which is developed by Gremlin Graphics. I want to share the music/sound rips as NSF files, though the page says it is yet to be ripped, even though the page says it was from 1989. Mark Cooksey told them they wrote the music in hexadecimal. The only other composers Gremlin Graphics used for consoles besides Cooksey were Neil Baldwin, an employee of Eurocom, who composed the music for HeroQuest (NES) and Barry Leitch, an employee of Imagitec at that time, were Super Cars (NES) and Greg Norman's Golf Power (NES). --Duc4Wikmedia (talk) 19:46, 21 November 2020 (EST)
Let's think of that!
Chaos, I think let's clear it up. Eden Entertainment Software outsourced its sound on some games (i.e. Robocop 3 and Joe and Mac) to Krisalis Software, NOT Teeny Weeny Games. TWG's games for Sega consoles always outsource sound to Krisalis Software. --Duc4Wikmedia (talk) 13:11, 30 November 2020 (EST)
Theoretical format outputting to PC Speaker
By the way, I think that Trixter Monotone MON format could be used for storing some PC Speaker data that isn't "digital" (aside from speech, samples and so on). The problem is that it would properly only work if someone re-compose songs in it, like ones from World Darts (DOS). Apache Strike (DOS), Spy Hunter (PCB) or Avoid the Noid (DOS). There is barely any conversion or logging ever available for it, and it's probably not coming soom sadly.
- Hi, thanks for looking! But I'm afraid re-composing (or converting in that manner) is more arduous and error-prone than logging and even ripping. I found a DOSBox patch that logs PC Speaker as AY data in VGM format but for me it works only half the time...
- Thinking publicly (in case someone else reads this), the CUST format is really very well done. CUST files are basically executables (like EXE files on DOS), only they must be called by a player on Amiga (or in an Amiga emulator like in DeliPlayer) -- and a such player needs very little to do, since the hardware is already there for real! Making such rips and a player under DOS should work... a plugin (like for XMPlay) not so easily, it'd have to be based on DOSBox which I could barely compile... --Professor Chaos (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2021 (EST)
Just some brief thoughts about wiki
First, I want to say it, if I haven't said it before, that I appreciate much your you vgmpf entries! You are one of the most productive members whose contribution is always associated for me with the quality.
Secondly, I feel that I should have written something like that. Just some thoughts about the project.
I'm very glad that vgmpf is one of the very few wiki projects on my memory which didn't fall in any kind of "gamekeeping" and "dictatorship". While moderators and admins of any project technically has the ability to banish nearly every user in the project, and most often with minor or no negative consequences (it's just the nature of the wiki rights' system), too often it ends up with woefully incompetent leaders of the project just preventing anyone they don't like to make entries, or clearing the edits that don't reflect the views - political, non-political... - of the leads.
In nearly all the cases it ends up ultimately with everyone leaving the project sooner or later, because people wouldn't like to spend a lot of time just to see themselves cutted from an ability to edit even their own pages. Even in Wikipedia, IMHO, the only reason why it's still alive is the large number of newcomers making scarcely just maybe 10 or 20 edits. Being the old-resident while not being among the "circle of owners" of it on Wikipedia hardly redeems all the time the person puts in it - I have seen a lot of these people, some even tried to make an article featured only to get banned in a process of defending it.
VGMPF exists for 11 or even 12 years, it's still alive and well, and, what's more important, it still remains a place when you can just edit without participating any wiki dramas.
I, however, think that there are some ways to make VGMPF even more valuable and, ultimately, more visitable for everyone.
I totally understand the aim of VGMPF of preserving everything about the music. Then writing more about the older pieces is needed since people involved in it are the oldest ones. At the same time, however, there are some more popular games even of that era not listed at all (mostly ZXS and C64, while NES games are all right). For new games, I believe, more of these 1995-2011 W32 games are expected to see on VGMPF, since it was their childhood, and some of these games were praised for the music. Sadly, there just aren't too many W32 games at all.
I feel that one day more pages describing the newer and popular games should be done by someone. Of course I understand that making music pages with 50+ tracks (that's very optimistic, actually) for these games isn't easy, so I don't have good ideas how to do it. --M1911 (talk) 16:08, 15 May 2021 (EDT)
- Here I am!
- Thank you very much! I always thought VGMPF is a place to popularize underrated facts, answer frequently asked questions, etc. It is a cool bonus to see influence, small or large: Forum and Twitter users already link to Clever Music, and I guess my DeepSID mentions and interview links have shown effect on VGMPF, too. :-) To get there, I analyzed lots of other pages. For example, I like User:Doommaster1994's ideas of explaining tunings and separating aliases by linebreaks rather than commas. I wish I could just contact composers as he does, it's definitely not my strength. Very true what you say about dramas, too: I've seen a couple of different sizes elsewhere, from short-lived childishness, to moderators who ignore each other. Turns out VGMPF users are down to earth and explain mistakes factually. User:TheAlmightyGuru must have put a lot of his personality into the guides, especially moderation, before others followed.
- Now my thoughts:
- I would like to add more for AST and CPC, indeed hoping that AST and CPC users feel taken seriously. Even I think that Ninja Scooter Simulator is totally better on CPC than on C64. :-) It can still be difficult since I don't know the platforms' market and community that well. Fortunately, YouTube has compilations ("best of cpc", "100 underrated windows games") and comments.
- Regarding W32 in particular, it seems that over half on VGMPF are RPG and shooters? Some professional games of other genres I have, from top of my head:
- I have a Nintendo DS since 2009.
- I have an Android game installed that may be 10 years old.
- Web Browser games.
- Even when nobody can think of newer games, perhaps somebody can focus on games about something everyone from every generation knows, like Tom & Jerry. Or horses. :-)
- Non-English games: Adventure games may not help much here, but comic and arcade games. Everyone in the West seemed to play Perestroika (DOS) in the 1990s (myself included), and I am a lifelong fan of Mortadelo y Filemón, even though I don't understand Spanish. Some German (original or localized) W32 games I have:
- Personally I seem to be more aware of RPGs and shooters that came to W32, such as:
- Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven (W32)
- Sacred (W32) + the sequel (the page exists, but sadly not finished)
- The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (W32)
- Dungeon Siege (W32) (btw Jeremy Soule music)
- The Witcher (W32)
- Divinity II: Ego Drakonis (W32)
- Serious Sam: The Second Encounter (W32)
- Return to Castle Wolfenstein (W32)
- Personally I seem to be more aware of RPGs and shooters that came to W32, such as:
- But surely there are of other genres, just among what comes in my mind and selecting just from games I love for the music:
- Sid Meier’s Civilization IV (W32)
- Super Cow (W32) (Alawar Russian platformer)
- Red Comrades 5: The End of the Game (W32) (Russian and most probably non-localized game, originally "named Петька 5: Конец Игры")
- Freddi Fish 2: The Case of the Haunted Schoolhouse (W32)
- The Neverhood (W32)
- Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game (W32)
- Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines (W32)
- Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (W32) - every chapter would be no less good, just Vice City has more radio tracks I personally like
- Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened (W32)
- But surely there are of other genres, just among what comes in my mind and selecting just from games I love for the music:
- I absolutely agree with your stance on VGMPF users. Just from my personal experience... TheAlmightyGuru has wonderful qualities of designing, making structure of everything and guides. binarymaster did a wonderful job with DOS gaming, including the creation of his own programs for MIDI playback, as well as Malvineous, responsible for Camoto with OPL playback. I love it when Doommaster1994 is able to contact nearly literally everyone, starting from Japanese people, as you have mentioned. Not to mention his passion while making guides about everything. I remembered Cancer as an editor having much more patience than me, including an ability to just rename by hand a lot of files. And banning a WAVE of spammers when they are coming. MrNorbert1994 is an avid NES programmer and archivists, collecting even the rips I perhaps could never obtain any other way. --M1911 (talk) 17:40, 20 May 2021 (EDT)
- By the way, I liked your Commodore 64 tunes! --M1911 (talk) 18:25, 8 July 2021 (EDT)
- Thanks! It seems hard to rate one's own tunes. :-) I guess the melodies are creative and harmonic, just a bit short. There will be 6 more in tomorrow's HVSC update, and DeepSID probably same week, though nothing to remove from SID#Missing this time. --Professor Chaos (talk) 13:56, 11 July 2021 (EDT)
Amstrad CPC site has a special tag for games without music
- Gosh, I've been on that site for years and never noticed! This could lower distractions from games without music. :-) Gamebase64 has something similar, too. --Professor Chaos (talk) 05:59, 26 September 2021 (EDT)
Unknown Mocking Song title
Hello! As it turned out, Goran Bregović has used simply "Mocking Song" name in his 1997 recording. Though he was by far not the first one to ever utilize it and most probably not the first one to record and release it professionally. However, can it be considered as a kind of "most common name" - enough to rename the article? --M1911 (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2021 (EDT)
- I don't think so... when googling "mocking song -Goran -Bregović" (with minus signs to exclude him), I can't seem to find anything, and "mocking song" is a rather obvious guess.
- But I remember now that the song was majorly featured in a cartoon I saw long ago and, through it, found "Ring Around the Rosy" on YouTube and TV Tropes. How about that? I will also tell HVSC, because I believe they made up "Nye nye nye booh booh I was right" themselves in the late 90s. --Professor Chaos (talk) 12:03, 4 October 2021 (EDT)
- Okay, not quite made up, but misspelt :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyah_nyah_nyah_nyah_nyah_nyah --Professor Chaos (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2021 (EDT)
- Here I am. Last week I additionally noticed that the Ring-song as in another SID and on Wikipedia sounds a little bit different from our unknown mocking song. I told my HVSC groupmates all I know. Nobody replied, our admin simply put "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah" and "Sad trombone" in. --Professor Chaos (talk) 15:12, 12 October 2021 (EDT)
File deletion request
Hi. Would you be so kind as to delete this unused redirect? Wish I had the rights to do it myself. By the way, thanks a lot for improving my TWNN article and some others' pages. You've been helping a lot lately. Да сте живи и здрави! --Жукороп (talk) 14:20, 4 May 2022 (EDT)
- Of course I deleted. Maybe you can just ask User talk:TheAlmightyGuru for deletion rights when you need them. Worked for me, and I can imagine it's your time, too. I sure love your attention to correcting and completing (categories, classical composer pages, questions on talk pages, etc.). All the best to you, too! --Professor Chaos (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2022 (EDT)
Hi. I noticed you added all my recently-made articles today on the front page. Is it strictly necessary to always showcase there anything new that users make? I know stuff like scrappy soundtracks aren't allowed, but are there any other exceptions? --Жукороп (talk) 12:01, 30 May 2022 (EDT)
- Not allowed? That's news to me, where did you read that? What I think: When choosing what to write about, it sure is a good idea to have common sense and focus on what sounds nice, sort of unique, or is well-known. For example, everyone knows Alf and thus might wonder about those two games I added. Even if they suck. I was unsure if I was going too far with Drei Drachentöter, but it sure sounds better than Alf (and Atari 2600 :P) and there's Category: Homebrew Games.
- But no, not strictly necessary. In fact, I have added similar games (like both Sky-Fighter ports and 5x Boulder Dash around the same time) but kept only one on main because I felt it would've been annoying. I'm sure I'll do it again, especially with inferior ports or variants.
- Regarding Auf Wiedersehen Pet, I guessed you were waiting till I finish Calippo. And while at it, I decided to look for other "main-worthy" updates (I occasionally did so in the past, and when I started, others did with me :)). I don't remember if you ever added people to main? I was a bit in a rush, but I probably subconsciously assumed you didn't know so I simply added all. I usually don't rate what others choose to write about, and I leave to them whether to choose scrappy stuff, but Mozart is fine (older contributors added ZZ Top and Hall & Oates).
- Hope I answered all. --Professor Chaos (talk) 14:11, 30 May 2022 (EDT)